PRESIDENT: Well, I was wondering what your latest 
developments were.  Do you, ah, plan to keep 
your boys all hopping around? 
DEAN: Well, hopefully.  Uh, Dick Moore and I are 
gonna work in this afternoon and today. 
PRESIDENT: Where do you live? 
DEAN: Pardon? 
PRESIDENT: Where do you live, are you staying? 
DEAN: Over in Covell. 
PRESIDENT: Covell... 
DEAN: Well, to work over in my office.  It's 
pretty quiet around here today. 
PRESIDENT: Anytime that you need to (unintelligible) 
Camp David place is very conducive to that 
kind of awful work (unintelligible). 
DEAN: I think that might be a good thing.  I 
mentioned that to Mitchell yesterday, that, 
ah, we probably need a good sitdown, kick 
this thing around session.  Ah, I would say 
that as a result of your press conference 
that the forward momentum that was going and 
building stopped, and, and, that it, it 
fluctuated and again we're, in this breeding 
space.  Uh, the press this morning is 
different, for example, it says the, uh, an 
accord has been reached.  The Post is even 
willing to say that, uh, as far as the 
information being provided.  It couldn't, 
uh, try to find something nasty to say but 
they, they realized that it was a 
cooperative effort, uh (coughs) what we have 
to do is be in a good posture, uh, come the 
opening gun on Ervin's hearings.  It's, it's 
always been-to me the most troublesome thing 
is that if he were gonna be non-biased, if 
he were gonna be non-partisan, if he were
gonna be fair and just, and the judge he 
likes to believe he is, ninety per cent of 
his hearings would be held in executive 
session... 
PRESIDENT: Sure. 
DEAN: ...rather than... 
PRESIDENT: And also the ten per cent of them or so 
(unintelligible). 
DEAN: That's right.  That's right.  Uh, what I've 
been trying to conceive of is, is some way 
that Ervin himself could come to that 
position.  If he did, he would be harming 
innocent people, but he will be dragging 
people in to things that, uh -- It's like 
really dragging them in, but that's the name 
of the game in the city and he's gonna love 
to play it. 
PRESIDENT: (Unintelligible) hark back to the Hiss case. 
We did that on the Hiss case. 
DEAN: You went into executive? 
PRESIDENT: ... the first confrontation, between I, we, 
we, we interviewed, we took, uh, after, uh, 
after, uh, Chambers, uh, Chambers went on 
and called himself and tried to challenge 
it. 
DEAN: Um hum. 
PRESIDENT: Hiss went on and denied it.  Then after 
that, I, ah, executive session with Chambers 
alone, for a couple of hours 
(unintelligible) executive session, and Hiss 
alone.  And then two together in New York in 
a hotel room. 
DEAN: And that was private also, huh? 
PRESIDENT: Executive.  And then only after the 
executive, would we go public. 
DEAN: Well, that, you know, that would be the fair 
way for Ervin to play it.  (unintelligible) 
go public.  Ah ... 
PRESIDENT: Yeah.  Well, anyway, that's a possibility, 
ah.  The thing I guess you've got to figure, 
is to whether you and Moore, perhaps even
individually or, uh (Unintelligible) 
collectively (unintelligible) collectively 
in writing a paper, and say that, uh-- and 
sit down and write what I would call a 
general, a very general statement that would 
be the -- Senator Ervin.  I would say 
Senator, you'd be interested to know what 
the hell we got here.  Here, here's my 
point, ah, ah, the ah, that's one way.  The 
other way would be to, ah, put down the, 
the, ar-- course the fact that it's being 
done.  The point that I made is this: we 
don't want to be in position of Dean and the 
White House, you and Dean, etc.  are acting 
as the President's counsel to forward him 
information on the basis of it's 
confidential.  You might just say now I 
can't say that this is all, everything, but 
it's everything we know.  We can say 
basically (noise-banging on desk) 
(unintelligible) in that sense, based on 
what we know (unintelligible) investigation 
(unintelligible) was not involved, or if he 
was this is all he knows.  Ah, Chapin--this 
is what he knows and I'd go in to Chapin and 
Segretti and just lay it all out 
there.(unintelligible) And, ah, Colson, you 
know what I mean? 
DEAN: Um hum. 
PRESIDENT: And, ah, and, or without going into it you 
could say, no one on the White House staff 
is involved, so forth and so on.  This may 
be fact those kind of (unintelligible) 
statements.  What I am getting at is that 
the moment that you get it too specific, and 
I realize that, they're gonna say why did 
you withhold something that you could simply 
say here are the conclusions we have reached 
based on your evaluation of the information 
that came to your attention.  They got a 
chance to look at all the other, we want to 
be as helpful as we can.  Here's what we've 
concluded and we welcome you to review it. 
DEAN: You, ah, you've raised something that, uh -- 
let me just take you one step further.  It 
might be a very interesting approach.  Ah,
if Ervin were to be called down here, and 
(coughs) and given sworn statements that 
were given to you, that's after I have 
prepared my report on Haldeman, Ehrlichman, 
Colson, Dean, everybody... 
PRESIDENT: Right. 
DEAN: ...they stated to the degree of their 
knowledge -- now what, what would be in 
there that would embarrassing politically -- 
and you might put Ervin on the spot -- is -- 
'cause I don't think he would want to 
embarrass for the sake of embarrassment 
alone -- is that, that there was knowledge 
that there was an intelligence operation in 
place. 
PRESIDENT: I say that? 
DEAN: But no knowledge that these people were 
going go do something criminal. 
PRESIDENT: That's right 
DEAN: And to the contrary, Mr. President, efforts 
by the White House to cut off these things 
that would be illegal. 
PRESIDENT: Oh, as a matter of fact as you point out, 
you could make some self-serving statements 
all over that I had put and uh, I had given 
instructions to the (unintelligible) he was 
to pass on to the campaign committee, I did 
not see them at that point, there was to be 
no acting, there was to be no violence, that 
th-, th-, th-, th-, th-, th-- we expected 
ours to be, we had to get the intelligence 
on it, from the standpoint of security, et 
cetera. 
DEAN: Hum. 
PRESIDENT: (Unintelligible) prepared -- put that whole 
thing out, put out the list on the seamy 
record of what we expected in San Diego, 
what we expected there and there's what we 
were trying to get at through intelligence, 
et cetera, you know what I mean. 
DEAN: Um hum. 
PRESIDENT: But point out that, ah, ah, you could just
say here is some sworn statements signed by 
(unintelligible) people that I've gotten 
from them I, it was for the record... 
N: Um Hum. 
PRESIDENT: Want further information, you can ask for 
it. 
********** 
DEAN: The interesting thing is, in the sequence of 
way things occurred, ah, I don't know if 
anyone has ever (coughs) taken you through 
his.  But the last involvement to my 
knowledge of the White House was when I came 
back from a meeting... 
PRESIDENT: (Unintelligible) answers "I know nothing 
about Watergate." 
DEAN: Right, well, ah... 
PRESIDENT: I stayed miles away from it so I didn't know 
even if there was a White House involvement. 
DEAN: Well, there was, ah, you know, there was a 
preliminary discussion of setting up an 
intelligence operation... 
PRESIDENT: Yeah. 
DEAN: ...and the last, and the last... 
PRESIDENT: (Unintelligible) 
DEAN: All right.  And the last phase of it... 
PRESIDENT: Phase of it was... 
DEAN: I came back from a meeting with Mitchell, 
Magruder and Liddy and told-- after telling 
them that they couldn't discuss this in 
front of the Attorney General of the United 
States, came back and told Bob that if 
there's something like that going on, we've 
got to stay two miles away from it, ten 
miles away from it because it just is not 
right and we can't have any part of it.  Bob 
said I agree and he'll have no part of it. 
That was where I thought it was turned off 
and the next thing I heard was that, that 
was this, the breakin on June 17th, which 
was... 
PRESIDENT: (Unintelligible)
DEAN: ...over six months later... 
PRESIDENT: You heard discussion of that, but you didn't 
hear any discussion of bugging did you, in 
that, your meetings?  Or did you? 
DEAN: Yeah, I did.  That what, ah, distressed me 
quite a bit. 
PRESIDENT: Oh you did. 
DEAN: Um hum. 
PRESIDENT: Who raised it?  Liddy? 
DEAN: That's right. 
PRESIDENT: Liddy at that point said we ought to do some 
bugging? 
DEAN: Right, Mitchell just sat there on his pipe 
and puffed and said nothing.  He didn't 
agree to it, and I, at the end of the 
meeting... 
PRESIDENT: Well, you won't need to say in your 
statement the bugging. 
DEAN: No. 
PRESIDENT: You could say that they were gonna engage in 
intelligence operations, you said the main 
thing is that, ah, ah, it must be totally 
legal and that the laws and ethics and so 
forth and so on.  You came back and Bob 
says, he says (unintelligible).  You know 
what I mean? 
DEAN: Right. 
PRESIDENT: I would think, make, I think you could make 
self-serving God-damn statements 
(unintelligible). 
DEAN: The embarrassment for you would be that the 
White House knew that there was an 
intelligence operation going, ah... but -- 
PRESIDENT: But, why, did you mean embarrassed? 
DEAN: All right. 
PRESIDENT: I think every, everybody, ah, everybody that 
(unintelligible) naive basis, who knows? 
Haldeman knows, right? 
DEAN: Right.
PRESIDENT: And of course, but you could be there if you 
justify it along the basis that... 
DEAN: We knew it was to be legal. 
PRESIDENT: Not only be legal but that it was totally 
necessary because of the violence, the, ah, 
the demonstrations, ah, the heck--, the kind 
of activities that we knew were threatened 
against us in our convention and in our 
campaign and in all of our appearances.  We 
had to have intelligence and about what they 
were gonna do that we could in turn issue 
instructions to (unintelligible) find out 
what they're doing, and, uh, something like 
that. 
DEAN: This is another point on not using the FBI 
for political purposes either.  Ah, while we 
would collect normal demonstration 
intelligence, we needed specific 
intelligence as to were there concerted 
efforts by opposing political people to 
demonstrate, cause disruption, (coughs) get 
these peaceniks whipped up into a frenzy and 
a like. 
PRESIDENT: That's right. 
DEAN: That's not, ah, that's not the function of 
the Bureau. 
PRESIDENT: You see, I've been thinking, I should say, 
for example, the matter was discussed as to 
whether or not, (unintelligible) the Bureau, 
ah, should be, ah, it was pointed out that 
in the 1964 elections, the Bureau was used 
(unintelligible). 
DEAN: Um hum. 
PRESIDENT: Could you get that--the salt? 
DEAN: Um hum. 
PRESIDENT: You get my point? 
DEAN: Um hum. 
PRESIDENT: And that's, uh, uh, then Haldeman said under 
no circumstances, or mention them, whatever 
they are, it all had to be done privately 
because the Bureau may not be involved in a 
partisan contest.  We could not use the
Bureau in this.  You can use them against 
demonstrations.  But for political 
character, the Bureau is never used.  Which 
is true. 
DEAN: Um, but I... 
PRESIDENT: The Secret Service was used, but they that's 
their job. 
DEAN: ...but that's their job... 
PRESIDENT: (Unintelligible) make it quiet there. 
DEAN: ...but they weren't, ah, uh, they weren't 
collecting the same type, they were... 
PRESIDENT: Oh, no they were... 
DEAN: ...threats and... 
PRESIDENT: (Unintelligible) 
DEAN: ...they were looking to see who was behind 
it or... 
PRESIDENT: What I'm getting at is, uh, you have got, 
you can put off all the self-serving men and 
they in turn, the main thing is the 
President has -- then, you see, that 
basically clears the President frankly... 
DEAN: That's right 
PRESIDENT: (Unintelligible) 
DEAN: That's right 
PRESIDENT: (Unintelligible) 
DEAN: That?s got to be done, that's right 
********** 
PRESIDENT: Where it's got to be done.  And then and 
frankly, they've got the say: I did this, 
this, this and this and Chapin would have to 
(unintelligible).  Agreed? 
DEAN: That's right. 
PRESIDENT: And he would say I had this and d-, d, d-, 
d-, but I had nothing to do with this... 
DEAN: No. 
PRESIDENT: ...or this other thing -- 
DEAN: It seems to me the way that you would, the
way these would be handled publicly or you 
want to say or publicly out of external from 
the White House, uh, that you might well, 
just give these to Ervin and directly and 
say I want you to see... 
PRESIDENT: Right. 
DEAN: ...what I know... 
PRESIDENT: That's right. 
DEAN: And I think that you know, innocent people 
here, who have committed no crime... 
[Part II]********** 
DEAN: The long and short of what I simply say that 
I think that, ah, Kleindienst, would like to 
turn Baker off a little bit on looking into 
the '68 thing and Baker wants to get some 
more facts on it.  So (sighs) it's kind of a 
hiatus right there, and I don't know as, uh, 
Baker will go aboard unless Kleindienst 
assures him they have something to produce 
and I don't know if Kleindienst has anything 
to produce. 
PRESIDENT: He won't produce if he has it.  The question 
is now what about Sullivan?  Are you gonna 
convert him? 
DEAN: No, Sullivan, ah, is, ah, committed to have 
me or have prepared for me in his own type- 
written, ah, product, his list of all the 
horribles that he is, ah... 
PRESIDENT: Yeah. 
DEAN: ...been able to recollect. 
PRESIDENT: I want that, I want that for starter, of 
course, nothing more. 
DEAN I think so. 
********** 
PRESIDENT: You need it very much.  I want it.  Now, you 
were saying too, ah, what really, ah, where 
the, this thing leads, I mean in terms of 
the vulnerabilities and so forth.  It's your 
view the vulnerables are basically Mitchell, 
Colson, Haldeman, indirectly, possibly 
directly, and of course, the second level
is, as far as the White House is concerned, 
Chapin. 
DEAN: And I'd say Dean, to a degree. 
PRESIDENT: You?  Why? 
DEAN: Well, because I've been all over this thing 
like a blanket. 
PRESIDENT: I know, I know, but you know all about it, 
but you didn't, you were in it after the 
deed was done. 
DEAN: That's correct, that I have no 
foreknowledge... 
PRESIDENT: Here's the whole point, here's the whole 
point.  My point is that your problem is 
you, you have no problem.  All the others 
that have participated in the God-damned 
thing, and therefore are potentially subject 
to criminal liability.  You're not.  That's 
the difference. 
DEAN: That's right. 
(Pause) 
PRESIDENT: And on that score, of course, we have to 
know where we are. 
DEAN: And on... 
PRESIDENT: Everybody -- Magruder I understand knows, 
told some people that Haldeman knows, told 
other people that, ah, Colson knows 
(unintelligible). 
DEAN: Oh Jeb, is ah, Jeb is a good man.  But if 
Jeb ever sees himself sinking, he will reach 
out to grab everybody he can get hold of. 
PRESIDENT: Will he? 
DEAN: Yes, and I think the unfortunate thing is in 
this whole thing, Jeb is the most 
responsible man for the whole incident. 
PRESIDENT: (Unintelligible) 
DEAN: Well, let me tell you, one, after it 
happened and on, on Monday, I, didn't take 
me very long to put the pieces together what 
had occurred, ah, I got a hold of Liddy and 
I said Gordon, I want to know who in the
White House is involved in this and he said, 
John, nobody is involved or has knowledge, 
that I know of.  Ah, that we were going in 
or the like, with one exception and it was a 
lower level person. 
PRESIDENT: Strachan. 
DEAN: Strachan.  Ah, he said I don't really know 
if he, how much he knew, and I said well why 
in the hell did this happen and he said 
Magruder pushed me without mercy to go in 
there.  Magruder said I had to go in there. 
He had to do this... 
PRESIDENT: Who pushed Magruder? 
DEAN: That's... 
PRESIDENT: Colson? 
DEAN: That's -- that what Jeb... 
PRESIDENT: Colson, did Colson push Magruder though? 
DEAN: Now that's where there's two stories. 
PRESIDENT: That's my point, I don't, I think, I-- 
Colson can push, but he didn't know Magruder 
that well. 
DEAN: No. 
PRESIDENT: And had very damn little confidence in him. 
Uh... 
DEAN: Right. 
PRESIDENT: ...So maybe that one can come from here.  Is 
that your point? 
DEAN: That's, ah, that's... 
PRESIDENT: Think Haldeman pushed him? 
DEAN: Well a, I think what happened is that on 
sort of a tickler... 
PRESIDENT: I can't believe Haldeman would push 
Magruder. 
DEAN: No, I don't think happened. 
PRESIDENT: I don't think (unintelligible) Maybe Chapin 
did. 
DEAN: No, I think Strachan did.  Because Strachan 
just had it on his tickler, he was supposed
to be gathering intelligence and talking to 
Jeb and saying what, where is it and why 
isn't it coming in?  You haven't produced 
it. 
PRESIDENT: Intelligence problems?  What were they 
worried about?  They worried about, as I 
understand it, the San Diego demonstrations. 
I'm too sure of, but I guess everybody 
around here except me worried about them. 
DEAN: Well, I, I don't know. 
PRESIDENT: Well demonstrations, what else... 
DEAN: I think... 
PRESIDENT: Mitchell...though that they would be worried 
about, were secret, I mean, the ten million 
dollars, what the hell difference did that 
make 
DEAN: I can't understand why they decided to go in 
DNC.  That absolutely mystifies me as to 
what-anybody's been around the National 
Committee knows there's nothing there. 
PRESIDENT: Well, the point is they're trying to see 
what the (unintelligible) developed in terms 
of the... 
DEAN: So that's the, that's the... 
PRESIDENT: And how they, now Magruder puts the heat on 
somebody else, you know, the way you see 
things, 'cause I understand it, is a, that, 
possibly heard a friend of mine, that, ah-- 
Sloan, Sloan starts pissing on Magruder and 
then Magruder starts pissing on, on, who 
even Haldeman... 
DEAN: No, no it's, it's, if... 
PRESIDENT: I don't see... 
DEAN: ...if, if somebody out of here were to start 
saying, or say, all right, Jeb, you're 
gonna, you're, you're gonna take the heat on 
this one, ah... 
PRESIDENT: Somebody down here's gonna say that? 
DEAN: No. 
PRESIDENT: Can't do that.
DEAN: No. 
PRESIDENT: I think what you've got to do, to the extent 
that you can, John, is cut her off at the 
pass.  And you cut off at the pass.  Liddy 
and his bunch just did this as part of their 
job. 
DEAN: They were out on a lark.  They went beyond 
any assignment they ever had. 
PRESIDENT: Now on the Segretti thing, I think you've 
just got to -- Chapin and all of them have 
just got to take the heat.  Look, you've got 
to admit the facts, John and... 
DEAN: That's right. 
PRESIDENT: And that's our -- and that's that.  And 
Kalmbach paid him.  And paid a lot of 
people.  I, I just think on Segretti, no 
matter how bad it is-- It isn't nearly as 
bad as people think it was.  Espionage, 
sabotage, shit. 
DEAN: The intent, when Segretti was hired, was 
nothing evil, nothing vicious, nothing bad, 
nothing.  Not espionage, not sabotage.  It 
was pranksterism that got out of hand, it-- 
and we don't know that.  And I think we can 
lay our story out there.  Ah.  I have no 
problem with the Segretti thing.  It's just 
not that serious.  The, ah, ah, the other 
potential problem, ah, is Ehrlichman's and 
that is... 
PRESIDENT: In connection with Hunt? 
DEAN: In connection with Hunt and Liddy both. 
PRESIDENT: They worked for him? 
DEAN: They -- these fellows had to be some idiots, 
as we've learned after the fact.  They went 
out and went into Dr.  Ellsberg's doctor's 
office and they had, they were geared up 
with all this CIA equipment, cameras and the 
like.  Well, they turned the stuff back in 
to the CIA some point in time and left film 
in the camera.  Ah, CIA has not put this 
together, and they don't know what it all 
means right now.  But it wouldn't take a 
very sharp investigator very long because
you've got pictures in the CIA files that 
they had to turn over to Justice. 
PRESIDENT: What in the world, what in the name of God 
was Ehrlichman having something 
(unintelligible) in the Ellsberg? 
DEAN: They were trying to -- this was a part of 
ah, an operation that, ah -- in connection 
with the Pentagon papers.  They were -- the 
whole thing -- and they wanted to get 
Ellsberg's psychiatric records for some 
reason. 
PRESIDENT: Why? 
DEAN: I don't know. 
PRESIDENT: This is the first I ever heard of this.  I, 
I (unintelligible) 
DEAN: Ah... 
PRESIDENT: ...care about Ellsberg was not our problem. 
DEAN: That's right. 
PRESIDENT: Jesus Christ. 
DEAN: Well, anyway, it, it, you know, it was under 
an Ehrlichman structure, maybe John didn't 
ever know.  I've never asked him if he knew. 
I didn't want to know. 
PRESIDENT: I can't see that getting into, into this 
hearing. 
DEAN: Well, look.  Here's-- no, here's the way it 
can come up. 
PRESIDENT: Yeah. 
DEAN: In the CIA's files which they -- which the 
Committee is asking for -- in the material 
they turned over the Department of 
Justice... 
PRESIDENT: Yeah. 
DEAN: ...there are all the materials relating to 
Hunt.  In there are these pictures which the 
CIA developed and they've got Gordon Liddy 
standing proud as punch outside this 
doctor's office with his name on it.  And 
it's this material, it's not going to take 
very long for an investigator to go back and
say, why would this somebody be at the 
doctor's office, and they'd find out that 
there was a break-in at the doctor's office, 
and then you'd find Liddy on the staff, and 
then you'd start working it back.  I don't 
think they'll ever reach that point. 
PRESIDENT: Can't be. 
DEAN: This was way... 
PRESIDENT: It's irrelevant. 
DEAN: It's irrelevant.  Right. 
PRESIDENT: That's the point.  That's where -- that's 
where -- where, ah, Ervin's rules of 
relevancy-- I'd like to know-- Now what the 
hell has this got to do with it? 
DEAN: It has nothing as a lot of these things that 
they could stumble along into, ah, is 
irrelevant 
**********